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	<title>Comments on: oscommerce is a beast</title>
	<link>http://www.eclectictech.net/etblog/2006/09/18/oscommerce-is-a-beast/</link>
	<description>On Matters Miscellaneous</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:08:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.eclectictech.net/etblog/2006/09/18/oscommerce-is-a-beast/#comment-115</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Oct 2006 19:22:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.eclectictech.net/etblog/2006/09/18/oscommerce-is-a-beast/#comment-115</guid>
					<description>I'd be very interested to get your feedback on carts at ubercart.org.  We're using the Drupal CMS as a development platform for a (hopefully) solid e-commerce package.  We've been tied to osCommerce for too long ourselves, and the current e-commerce package for Drupal wasn't exactly what we were looking for.  The project is still VERY much under development (only a week and a half of coding so far) and we're certainly planning on carrying it too completion.  (As in, as long as I'm getting paid, I'm there to stay.  ; )  So, stop by and give us some feedback, tear the options to shreds, and help us make a useful cart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d be very interested to get your feedback on carts at ubercart.org.  We&#8217;re using the Drupal CMS as a development platform for a (hopefully) solid e-commerce package.  We&#8217;ve been tied to osCommerce for too long ourselves, and the current e-commerce package for Drupal wasn&#8217;t exactly what we were looking for.  The project is still VERY much under development (only a week and a half of coding so far) and we&#8217;re certainly planning on carrying it too completion.  (As in, as long as I&#8217;m getting paid, I&#8217;m there to stay.  ; )  So, stop by and give us some feedback, tear the options to shreds, and help us make a useful cart.
</p>
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		<title>by: Crisses</title>
		<link>http://www.eclectictech.net/etblog/2006/09/18/oscommerce-is-a-beast/#comment-30</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Sep 2006 04:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.eclectictech.net/etblog/2006/09/18/oscommerce-is-a-beast/#comment-30</guid>
					<description>I gave up on Zen Cart when it hasn't really gotten out of the starting gate.

1) it's a branch off oscommerce
 -- fyi, it's fixed the design vs logic issue, so at least there's that.

2) fewer contributions.  Given how broken the coupons module was for osc, I didn't want to fuss with their "convert OSC contributions" instructions -- the coupon code, along with it's discount code prerequisite, would break the site.  No way, thanks, keep the change.

3) the one coupon module mentioned was $150.  I'm not paying out of pocket and customers are coming to me to be and remain cheap.  It's not much of an open-source package if things I believe are vital core elements of a store are left out of the ecommerce package, then charged money for.  Joomla has a serious problem with people charging for contributions.  Again, PmWiki spoils me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I gave up on Zen Cart when it hasn&#8217;t really gotten out of the starting gate.</p>
<p>1) it&#8217;s a branch off oscommerce<br />
 &#8212; fyi, it&#8217;s fixed the design vs logic issue, so at least there&#8217;s that.</p>
<p>2) fewer contributions.  Given how broken the coupons module was for osc, I didn&#8217;t want to fuss with their &#8220;convert OSC contributions&#8221; instructions &#8212; the coupon code, along with it&#8217;s discount code prerequisite, would break the site.  No way, thanks, keep the change.</p>
<p>3) the one coupon module mentioned was $150.  I&#8217;m not paying out of pocket and customers are coming to me to be and remain cheap.  It&#8217;s not much of an open-source package if things I believe are vital core elements of a store are left out of the ecommerce package, then charged money for.  Joomla has a serious problem with people charging for contributions.  Again, PmWiki spoils me.
</p>
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		<title>by: Crisses</title>
		<link>http://www.eclectictech.net/etblog/2006/09/18/oscommerce-is-a-beast/#comment-29</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:02:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.eclectictech.net/etblog/2006/09/18/oscommerce-is-a-beast/#comment-29</guid>
					<description>It looks like I may be using Zen Cart a lot sooner than I thought.  I had a bug in OSC that may have been introduced while I added a plug in or created one of the many hacks I had to add to it. Regardless, it's such a mess of a program that I apologized profusely to my client and told her I'm going to install Zen Cart instead.  I'm absolutely steaming furious at the moment however.  So, how was your day?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It looks like I may be using Zen Cart a lot sooner than I thought.  I had a bug in OSC that may have been introduced while I added a plug in or created one of the many hacks I had to add to it. Regardless, it&#8217;s such a mess of a program that I apologized profusely to my client and told her I&#8217;m going to install Zen Cart instead.  I&#8217;m absolutely steaming furious at the moment however.  So, how was your day?
</p>
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		<title>by: Crisses</title>
		<link>http://www.eclectictech.net/etblog/2006/09/18/oscommerce-is-a-beast/#comment-20</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:41:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.eclectictech.net/etblog/2006/09/18/oscommerce-is-a-beast/#comment-20</guid>
					<description>Thanks for the comment, Nathanael.

I want to please my customer.  For goodness' sake I'm in the business of service, quality keeps me in business, I'm a sole proprietor, I want good references, et. al.  I've been a hacker and coder for over 20 years (ok -- since 15, I'm 37).  I've been fooled by many well-written open source programs into thinking that these programs are about collaboration, team effort, allowing users/other programmers to code between the lines, to extend the work, to add functionality that I just don't have the time for.

I've programmed on PmWiki plug-ins -- I'm working on one right now to extend the mysql user authentication (intended for single-sign-in with other systems) to be stand-alone.  That means I've programmed it to include user account creation, emailing the user a validation code, validating the user, allowing users to change lost passwords, etc.  I haven't had to touch a single line of core PmWiki code.  I haven't even had to LOOK at it.  Barring configuration variables to be added to a config file, everything is self-contained in the one php file, and everything I needed to hook into PmWiki was already in the code I'm altering.  Everything.

I'm embarrassed for oscommerce.  I've dug through it enough that I have an idea of where to find the files I need to hack, as needed, but any program that takes me an hour to add a "contribution" to because I have to hand-edit files has got serious problems.

I'll give you an oscommerce mixed blessing.    Try out Basic Template Structure.  It has to come with a HUGE disclaimer, however:  DO NOT use it if your primary goal is function over design.  If you have a client who insists on THEIR design and that's the primary concern, it's going to save you more than only hours.  If you need to add plug-ins, realize that this contribution entirely(!) replaces a good 40% of the OSC back-end -- moving all the design code OUT of the program code... and makes it almost EASY to redesign the site.  However, when you add plug-ins back in, you may replace some of these files, or need to hunt down the files in question (command-line fgrep is my friend!) to find where portions of the code or design have been separated.

I added this hack um Contribution to the osc site I am currently installing for a customer.  It made the design FAR easier.  I had hacked SOME of the out-of-the-box design, then realized that portions of the design code are spread out in about 30 files...much of which is near-identical design.  And it's not something that you can just CSS away.

However it complicated adding contributions such as the discount/coupon packages later.

I'm considering adding Zen Cart to eclectictech.net and putting up a list of the package deals I offer for sale.  If I do, I'm sure to need to change design elements and maybe hack a thing or three.  I'll be sure to put up a review, and I'll try to remember to notify you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comment, Nathanael.</p>
<p>I want to please my customer.  For goodness&#8217; sake I&#8217;m in the business of service, quality keeps me in business, I&#8217;m a sole proprietor, I want good references, et. al.  I&#8217;ve been a hacker and coder for over 20 years (ok &#8212; since 15, I&#8217;m 37).  I&#8217;ve been fooled by many well-written open source programs into thinking that these programs are about collaboration, team effort, allowing users/other programmers to code between the lines, to extend the work, to add functionality that I just don&#8217;t have the time for.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve programmed on PmWiki plug-ins &#8212; I&#8217;m working on one right now to extend the mysql user authentication (intended for single-sign-in with other systems) to be stand-alone.  That means I&#8217;ve programmed it to include user account creation, emailing the user a validation code, validating the user, allowing users to change lost passwords, etc.  I haven&#8217;t had to touch a single line of core PmWiki code.  I haven&#8217;t even had to LOOK at it.  Barring configuration variables to be added to a config file, everything is self-contained in the one php file, and everything I needed to hook into PmWiki was already in the code I&#8217;m altering.  Everything.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m embarrassed for oscommerce.  I&#8217;ve dug through it enough that I have an idea of where to find the files I need to hack, as needed, but any program that takes me an hour to add a &#8220;contribution&#8221; to because I have to hand-edit files has got serious problems.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll give you an oscommerce mixed blessing.    Try out Basic Template Structure.  It has to come with a HUGE disclaimer, however:  DO NOT use it if your primary goal is function over design.  If you have a client who insists on THEIR design and that&#8217;s the primary concern, it&#8217;s going to save you more than only hours.  If you need to add plug-ins, realize that this contribution entirely(!) replaces a good 40% of the OSC back-end &#8212; moving all the design code OUT of the program code&#8230; and makes it almost EASY to redesign the site.  However, when you add plug-ins back in, you may replace some of these files, or need to hunt down the files in question (command-line fgrep is my friend!) to find where portions of the code or design have been separated.</p>
<p>I added this hack um Contribution to the osc site I am currently installing for a customer.  It made the design FAR easier.  I had hacked SOME of the out-of-the-box design, then realized that portions of the design code are spread out in about 30 files&#8230;much of which is near-identical design.  And it&#8217;s not something that you can just CSS away.</p>
<p>However it complicated adding contributions such as the discount/coupon packages later.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m considering adding Zen Cart to eclectictech.net and putting up a list of the package deals I offer for sale.  If I do, I&#8217;m sure to need to change design elements and maybe hack a thing or three.  I&#8217;ll be sure to put up a review, and I&#8217;ll try to remember to notify you!
</p>
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		<title>by: Nathanael</title>
		<link>http://www.eclectictech.net/etblog/2006/09/18/oscommerce-is-a-beast/#comment-19</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 13:49:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.eclectictech.net/etblog/2006/09/18/oscommerce-is-a-beast/#comment-19</guid>
					<description>I'd be interested to hear about your trial of Zen Cart - I'm currently starting a project to evaluate oscommerce. I've had a quick look at the code, and it scared me for reasons you've already outlined - but still, if you can mold your clients' requirements around the default system configuration (don't tell anyone I suggested that) then surely you've saved yourself hours of development of a shopping cart facility, however if there is any gap between the default system config and what it needs to be then yes I can see that there would be some grief. So let us know if you find any better alternatives!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d be interested to hear about your trial of Zen Cart - I&#8217;m currently starting a project to evaluate oscommerce. I&#8217;ve had a quick look at the code, and it scared me for reasons you&#8217;ve already outlined - but still, if you can mold your clients&#8217; requirements around the default system configuration (don&#8217;t tell anyone I suggested that) then surely you&#8217;ve saved yourself hours of development of a shopping cart facility, however if there is any gap between the default system config and what it needs to be then yes I can see that there would be some grief. So let us know if you find any better alternatives!!
</p>
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